The Mitchell Center released all 1,500 pages of McCain's medical and psychiatric records. There ARE no records of McCain's time in captivity. The conclusion of psychiatric exam was that McCain does not suffer from PTSD.

Military records CANNOT be obtained under the Freedom of Information Act (FOIA). They are PRIVATE.

The ones with conscience left for Canada because they recognized as most recognize now, that the Viet Nam war was completely bogus from start to shameful finish and the fiasco in Iraq is a repeat performance by republican hawks.

For McCain to constantly bring up his POW status reminds me of the old cliche - "what have you done lately". The POW thing is 40 years old yet we hear in every damned speech he makes "I've got the scars to prove it". If that's all he can rely on, it's not nearly enough. His history in the military was as that of a perpetual screwup who drank and womanized. His father and grandfather must be turning in their graves. Aside from graduating 5th from the bottom of his class at the naval academy, the ONLY plus is that he survived capture. Well, thousands of other soldiers did the very same thing and that doesn't necessarily make them presidential material either. He's just another privileged politician who didn't really earn his way anywhere. After crashing four planes, he never would have even graduated from the naval academy were it not for his father's status.

Now, he's an angry old forgetful man who abandoned his principles and abandoned his wife simply because of her traffic accident, cheated on her and married rich. That's character? Hardly. i think he's disgraceful.

And watching the third debate tonight, the thing that McCain did repeatedly that completely turned me off was his smiling and smirking at everything that Obama said. The hostility and obvious disdain for Obama was palpable. McCain is finished as is the republican party who, I think, owe this country a huge apology for the many messes they've left us to deal with but deal we will with a new Democratic president. Obama shines.

It is evident to me that Earthpuppy detests all things Republican, including Senator McCain. The OP is obvious liberal tripe that isn't even worth my time to respond to, but I did want to at least give the topic this -> much recognition.

It seems reasonable to at least make clear what I think of the topic and the shaking blue face seems to sum up my feelings quite well. Now if only the blue face had a huge fist attached to it that could reach through the puter and actually smack Earthpuppy a few times. That's all for now...

Watch the debate again and see McCain using his eyes to Morse code his handlers while Obama was talking.

Saw it in a movie once, never expected to see it again unless in panic mode.

Nifty.

· · · — — — · · ·

You're no hero when you shouldn't have been there in the first place, Skippy.

Iraq is Vietnam's little sister...

... with bigger BOOBS

McCain put 1500 pages in a room and let a few selected reporters see them for a few hours, not nearly enough time to evaluate 100 pages let alone 1500. The records he allowed them to see only covered the past 10 years..

The pow/mia records the Vietnamese were going to release are the records McCain doesn't want released. He obvously wants to keep some big secrete about his activities.

It's obvious by your response, you did take the time to respond and show your wish to commit violent acts on others.

The biggest thing I will ever remember Cretien for, besides his lazy face, is that he stood up for Canada when we refused the US administration demanding our support in Iraq. They could NOT say we didn't support the country since we took every plane they refused to land.

Canada took every American in the air and every citizen of every country in every flight not yet grounded during 9-11. And we fed them and housed them when the US could not/would not.... For how long? A week?

Canada always does her own thing.
Historically... we lead the US where needed so they can claim victory.

Everyone needs a boisterous little brother.

Big Sister is just a little more careful about picking her battles.

Sorry fly...if you must take it so personally. You are merely wrong on the records and my take on McCain. Only a smattering of McCain's pow records have been released, and none from Vietnam or Russia. McCain worked diligently to put them off limits in this country as well, thus the short circuit of FOIA. The families deserve the truth about the hundreds or thousands left behind. Would you not like closure as to the fate of your brother, father, sister, grandfather?..It is his disdain shown for the families of the fallen, his persistent lying, support of the Iraq genocide, voting against Veterans care issues, and pandering to the most extreme elements that cost him the respect I once had. I believed that narrative of this "honor", till he lost his honor and I became aware of the real McCain.

I don't hate McCain. I feel sorry for how he sold his soul to the far right of this country, along with the once respected republican party. I feel sorry for the Dems becoming republican light. I feel for this country, that is so easily manipulated and so cold about the millions of dead, wounded and dying, because of lies like Johns.

McCain is kind of cute, in a turtle-on-the-beach kind of way. Admit it.

He's about to be flipped on his back and that will be the most entertaining. His little arms... flapping...legs... kicking...

*chuckles*

Can't wait.

And when he is, he'll land on Barack Obama who will be driven into the sand, never to be heard from again.



McCain has released more records about his medical and psychiatric history than any Presidential candidate EVER. If the press is going to whine about that, then let 'em.



ALL of McCain's records from the Mitchell Center have been released, there are NONE from the last 10 years. In fact there are none for the last 14 years, being that McCain left the program in 1994.

I don't know where you get your information from.





And we would believe ANYTHING those miserable SOBs had in their records? The NVA wouldn't even release the NAMES of POWs to the US. What makes you think that anything they say is credible?

Sheesh!



The movie was the Manchurian Candidate, and glad you were paying attention to me in the chat last night.

The movie recreated an event where the NVA forced Jerry Denton to speak in front of the TV cameras for propaganda purposes. Since he was there Denton decided to use the opportunity to repeatedly blink the word "TORTURE" in Morse Code.

My take on McCain's blinking last night were that the camera lights were bothering him. No Morse Code involved.



Personally? None of it is personal to me, but ALL military personnel records are PRIVATE. Has nothing to do with subverting the FOIA. If you tried to get a record on average "Joe Blow" in the Army, you wouldn't be able to get any of his records either. POWs aren't being given any rights to privacy above what the average GI is afforded.

Making a person's military records public is no different than making your employment records public without your permission.

And what gives you the idea that McCain was ever held in Russia? Further, you'd believe anything that the enemy says about our troops? The same people who had to be FORCED to even reveal the names of the POWs??



McCain has been criticized for his decision in some circles, but the fact is that he didn't seek to do this until 1991, 18 years after the POWs were repatriated. There has to be a time after which you accept that all has been done.

Yeah, Ann Mills Griffith and Red McDaniels aren't particularly John McCain fans.



You're entitled to your opinion, but that's all it is, YOUR opinion. It's now been almost 36 years since the Vietnam POWs were repatriated. There's never been any credible evidence that POWs were left behind in all these years.

And I'll believe you about Iraq and genocide when you show me the death camps, the piles of skeletal remains, and the "master race" that is being bred by our GIs. Until then, I consider what you say nothing but inaccurate derision of our men and women in uniform.

Bluesman, while I generally agree with your posts, I have to disagree with you on the idea that draftees and/or soldiers with a conscience left to Canada during Vietnam. All too many were too ill-informed, too over-indoctrinated, or just simply lacking in resources to even consider going to Canada or to any other country that would offer sanctuary. And the same is true for soldiers today. How many of them went into the military because it offered them opportunities for education and health care that they couldn't find elsewhere? Or just out of a desire for adventure, an opportunity to see more of the world.

My oldest son, in an act of adolescent rebellion sadly apt for the child of a pacifist, enlisted in the army reserves at 18, in 1988. After several weeks of boot camp/indoctrination he was finally allowed to use the phone. He said, Ma, they're training me to be a hired killer, I said well, what the f@#$ did you expect, and we both cracked up laughing. The army was so inept that, in spite of the fact that he only attended one reserves meeting after he got home, they never hassled him and gave him an honorable discharge ten years later.

Hate to burst your bubble, but... I wasn't online until very late last night and therefore missed your movie trivia nuggets in chat.

Thank you for reminding me what movie it was, however.

Zabet was right on about the demographic of most who are thrust into service.
I fit that demographic during the Vietnam Error. Farm boy, no chance of college without GI bill, insular and propogandized culture, uncles in the other wars, draft breathing heavily on the neck, disdain for even colder weather in Canada, and could not let the family honor down, a need to get away from Wisconsin on the cheap, promises made..promises unkept. Instead of the Meditaranean duty promised, I ended up in the Gulf of Tonkin, Yankee Station. My training that I had not hoped to use, was used, lobbing a few thousand 5/54 shells in the direction of peoples lives. By the time I had to plead Conscientious Objector status, the damage had been done..I was going to hell...hurry up..find a religion that won't send me there...Oh..now they really want to screw with me. Get out finally, angry, betrayed, blew 3 1/2 years of schooling trying to find pieces of myself...typical of young 20s of the time who were exposed to insanity that no 20 year old should face. Why don't the old ones, or chickhawks go to wars?...Duh.

Fast forward. Nephew. Caught up in the post 9/11 bloodlust and Patridiotism, signs up for Military Police duty, gets brainwashed, becomes Army Airbourne in the hunt for Bin Laden, bad "Intel", whoops, just killed a family of 14 innocents, gun to bodies, psych discharge, falls through the cracks of promises, yet again, 12 pack therapy, cannot sleep, angry at anything and everything, about to lose new wife, new home, managerial job, thought demons were conquered, and unable to be reached.

In the last 6 years, 6 of my brothers in arms of my acquaintence, have become casualites of the Vietnam era, by self-inflicted gun or bottle, all too young. Their families are left with survivors guilt, thinking there was some magic thing that could have taken that long dark pain away. It is a daily battle for many of us, most days better than others. Triggers like the Iraq attack, and McCain, bring back demons thought long vanquished. No 20 year olds or any humans for that matter, on either side of the guns, should be thrust into situations like those of wars, particularly for the whims of corrupt, lying politicians.

I will profess that my McCain disdain and intolerance for Chickenhawks and Yellow Republicans, is profound. We have fought for, killed for, and try to live for the right to our opinions on the man and people who send people to unneeded wars and commit mass murder. A man is judged by his deeds. McC's words are empty. He has betrayed my fellows, friends who lost loved ones who are still missing and unaccounted for, undermines veterans health care needs, truth, and honesty at every turn. This is the opinion of many of my brothers and sister who saw too much, too young and still. These are just as valid as any opinions.

The nephew weighs heavily on my mind, as he drinks mightily, does not return calls, and is taking the easy out way too soon. McCain is mere dogshit that needs to be stepped over to walk a less smelly, and more peaceful path.
http://www.veteransforpeace.org/index.php
http://www.vietnamveteransagainstjohnmccain.com/
http://www.vvaw.org/

There have been, however, some rather interesting potential leads uncovered.

We do know that Russian intelligence agents were inside North Vietnam during the war there, with a focus on analyzing things like shoot down data, recovered military technology, etc. This should not surprise anyone, as either side would have done the same in such critical times, at the height of the Cold War.



We do have proof of those connections:



There is a rather high probability that the most important American prisoners ( B-52/other strategic airpower crews, and men like them) would have certainly been of high interest to the Soviets - as they would have been a major threat to Soviet territory in any war scenario with the USA.

It's not too hard to believe those men would have been taken for additional questioning by the Soviets.



http://www.powmia.com/

Kevinized --

John McCain had no enemies, and no one coming out of the rafters to say bad things about him until 1991 when he sought to shut down further investigation of any MIAs that may have been left behind.

After that time, there was a huge rift between those who were convinced we hadn't done everything we could have done and those who believed that it was time to close the book.

In the years following 1991, there have been six sightings of possible "MIA's". In all six cases they were found not to be missing personnel. At least some were military who had gone AWOL and therefore lived out the remainder of their days in SE Asia.

No one in the League of Families likes John McCain, given that the purpose of the organization is to continue to find missing MIAs or their remains. I did view a little of the videos posted below, and John McCain has addressed Earl Hopper's allegations previously. While McCain did reveal bombing locations, they were locations that had ALREADY been hit.

McCain and every other POW went to extraordinary measures to reveal as little important information as was possible. The average IQ of a Vietnam era pilot was 135 (Mitchell Center records) and these guys were crafty. Plus in pre-internet days, POWs could reveal the names of football players, cartoon characters, or B movie actors instead of peers and superiors and not be disproven in a Google search.

BTW, the reason POWs would give the names of semi-famous people rather than just making up names, is because it was a means of conveying information to operatives of a covert CIA/DIA program during the war. One of the many operations involved having the POWs write letters home, and having the wives and families write back using coded information provided by agency operatives. The use of obviously false names may have even been suggested by the government operatives. There were at least a dozen POWs (and their families) who were part of the program. The details have not been made public, because the program is still classified.

Monty --

The F-111 was probably turned over to the Russians by the NVA. In all there were seven incidents involving the F-111, but only one crew came home alive. The possibility of POWs being transferred to Russia came from an NSA official named Jerry Mooney whose assignment was tracking downed pilots via their before-crash transmissions and intercepted North Vietnamese communications. In 1991 Mooney blabbed classified information in "secret testimony" before a Senate committee. Mooney testified that he tracked some of the pilots to several cities in Cambodia, and concluded that they had been transferred to Russia from there. However, the whole idea that Vietnam POWs were sent to Russia is pure speculation, because none of those who may have been transferred came home alive. See: Another look at our POW/MIA'S in Vietnam: What was Moscow's role?

Of the 591 Vietnam POW returnees, not a one remembers ever being questioned by Russians. While the reference from the Vietnam Working Group mentions that US POWs were interviewed, it does not say that any of them revealed having been questioned by Russians. The source that such interviews may have taken place came from Russian officials in the working group. They testified that there were 5 cases of US POWs being questioned. According to the officials, the POWs were not transferred to Russia. If this is indeed true, the POWs were not aware that their interrogators were Russian. Given that the POWs were severely tortured during interrogations, that is entirely possible. See "Russian-U.S. panel identifies U.S. POWs." AP, February 2003. I can't find a copy of it on-line, but I do have one in my archives if you want me to send you a copy.

If Russians did indeed question US Vietnam era POWs, they wouldn't have been even slightly interested in interrogating someone like John McCain. He was just a flyboy, and had little information of interest. McCain's best use to the NVA was as a propaganda tool. The POWs that the Russians would have been the most interested in were senior officers and captured "State Department officials" (i.e., probably CIA) like Mike Benge, or suspected CIA pilots like Ernie Brace. However, Ernie was not near any possible Russian interrogators. He was kept in the South in tiger cases for most of his time as a POW (one of the few who survived) before being transferred to Hoa Lo (the Hanoi Hilton) for his last six months as a POW. If you want to read one of the more horrifying stories of captivity you should read Ernie's bio.

Just some more info, the last one is from fox

I have read up extensively on McCain, long before he considered running for President. I'm a miltary buff, and have an extensive library of books on the subject.

I have a great respect for the man in that regard, regardless of how I feel about his politics. I'd shake his hand, were I ever to meet him, simply for that aspect of his life.

As for the rift you mentioned, it's quite understandable. No warrior can easily accept leaving another behind, if even the slightest chance they are alive exists. That's just how such men think, and I've talked to quite a few people that fought in Vietnam - and in other wars.

As for the possible Russian/Chinese influence, I would imagine that any pilots (especially high level ones, like those in the strategic bomber command) would have been exceptionally valued as interrogation subjects. I'd also imagine that they would have been dealt with some top secret level - if picked for such a program.

There have been reports of the "Cuba Program" , where Cubans directly interrogated and tortured American prisoners.

http://www.autentico.org/oa09872.php

Based on experience with other Communist countries, like North Korea, such potential should not be overlooked - and should be kept open. The Russians don't seem to want to discuss the topic in any great detail, it seems.



On a semi-related note, those interested should read the letter from the Pueblo prisoners, held in North Korea, for a great example of how men under great duress can write "propaganda" ....while giving those "Hawaiian Good Luck Signs" to their captors.



http://www.usspueblo.org/v2f/captivity/room13.html

Until Time Magazine broke the story, and they paid a heavy price for that act.

A good site for Pueblo related information:
http://www.usspueblo.org/v2f/captivity/incaptivity.html

The Pueblo still sits docked in North Korea - over forty years after it's capture.
http://rokdrop.com/2007/01/26/rememberi ... ss-pueblo/

Bucher: My Story is a great (if tough) read for those interested on what it's like to be a POW in such a regime.

Off topic slightly, but worthy of consideration in regards to the general topic at hand, regarding "war crimes" .

John's preferential treatment was in part due to his capital via his station, and could well re-enforce the beliefs by many fellow POWs that his collaberation was extraordinary.

McCain Was Not Tortured, POW Guard Claims
By John Hooper, The Guardian
October 17, 2008
http://www.alternet.org/story/103233/
[This corroborates claims made by fellow POWs? on the website www.vietNamVetsAgainstMcCain.com. But then a lot of folks don't give a damn.]

The Republican US presidential candidate John McCain was not tortured during his captivity in North Vietnam, the chief prison guard of the jail in which he was held has claimed.

In an interview with the Italian daily Corriere della Sera, Nguyen Tien Tran acknowledged that conditions in the prison were "tough, though not inhuman". But, he added: "We never tortured McCain. On the contrary, we saved his life, curing him with extremely valuable medicines that at times were not available to our own wounded."

continued..

I'd suggest you do some more research into what captivity was like in North Vietnam for captured American POW's.

From all that I've read, McCain suffered much the same fate as the rest of them - and did so with honour.

They didn't call it the "Hanoi Hilton" because it offered comfortable beds and a shower....

Did he break ? It seems so....but so did many others, and the information they provided was essentially worthless to their captors.

That entire episode in American military history forced a review of the Code Of Conduct, and that was changed to avoid men dying for little or no reason, as many did while held prisoner by the North Vietnamese.

There's a lot more to go after McCain on, and this path leads to little of any real worth about the man's ability to be President.